Streit von Kirchdorf BE

[Wolf]

Kirchdorf-Tauf-1751-1751-Streit-Symbol.jpg

Bei diesem Eintrag im Taufrodel Kirchdorf geht es mir nicht um die Daten von Kind, Eltern oder Zeugen, sondern das rot markierte Symbol (oder ist es eine Abkürzung ... cf für siehe?) über Par. Es handelt sich hier um den ersten Eintrag des neuen Pastors. In den kommenden Jahren (Aufnahme 16ff) finde ich nichts Vergleichbares. Kann jemand die Bedeutung erläutern?

Was mir auffällt: beim Vater wird die Ortschaft Kilchdorff geschrieben, beim Paten Kirchdorff .

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urspr. Titel: Streit von Kirchdorf BE (Symbol oder Abkürzung?)

[Walter]

Vermutlich ist die Antwort ziemlich banal, ich denke es ist ein durchgestrichenes "T".
Der Schreiber hat also versehentlich zuerst mit den Taufzeugen anfangen wollen, und hat das dann korrigiert.

[Debra Palmer]

Hello,

The death record (year 1804 in Kirchdorf) is for Maria Streit - see below. I would appreciate a little help to check my transcription for any needed corrections and help with a few questions. I am not sure about the last word Stich., could it be the cause of death? Is my translation of the record correct?

I had found a baptism record for a Maria Streit (daughter of Bendicht Streit in der Insel and Christina Trachsel) who was baptized on 06.07.1749 in Kirchdorf. This record did not mention the day of birth, but using the baptism date and the date of 17.01.1804 in the death record for Maria Küntzi née Streit, I calculated an age at death of 54 years, 6 months, and 11 days. This age is a pretty good match to the age of 54 years and 6 months in the death record, so I think Maria Streit in the two records seems to be the same person. On the same page as Maria's death record, I looked at the age in other entries and some did include the number of days. Any thoughts about whether or not the scribe may have just decided to not include the number of days when he calculated the death age for Maria?

I also have a marriage record for Hans Küentzi von Jaberg and Maria Streit aus der Insel on 02.10.1769 in Kirchdorf.

Death record: St. A. B., Totenrodel, year 1804, K Kirchdorf 14, image 6, page 9.
Baptism record: St. A. B., Taufrodel, year 1749, K Kirchdorf 3, image 13, page 23.
Marriage record: St. A. B., Eherodel, year 1769, K Kirchdorf 9, image 25, page 47.

Jan[uar] 17. 20. [1804]
des Hans Küntzis v[on] Jaberg hinterlaß[en] Witwe
eine geb[orene] Maria Streit - alt 54 J[ahr] 6 M[onat] - Stich.

On January 17, 1804, the surviving widow of Hans Küentzi of Jaberg, Maria née Streit died. The burial was on January 20th. She was 54 years and 6 months old. ?

Maria Streit death 1804 Kirchdorf page 9 1st entry.jpg

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urspr. Titel: Streit von Jaberg BE

[hhg]

throwing thoughts:
- baptizing ceremonies usually occured on Sundays. Unless the priest, or the reporting person, knew the deceased's exact birthday, they had to put up with death age in years and months only
- my guess for the last word: Ruhr (dysentery), Maria's cause of death

[Walter]

I also have a marriage record for Hans Küentzi von Jaberg and Maria Streit aus der Insel on 02.10.1769 in Kirchdorf.

Diese Ehe wurde am 6. Oktober 1769 in Oberdiessbach geschlossen (Rodel 27, Seite 18 / siehe Anhang)

Oberdiessbach_27-18_oo1769.jpg

[Wolf]

I also have a marriage record for Hans Küentzi von Jaberg and Maria Streit aus der Insel on 02.10.1769 in Kirchdorf.

Diese Ehe wurde am 6. Oktober 1769 in Oberdiessbach geschlossen (Rodel 27, Seite 18 / siehe Anhang)

Weitere Diskussionen zu Künzi von Jaberg bitte im eigenen (existierenden) Thema.

[Debra Palmer]

throwing thoughts:
- baptizing ceremonies usually occured on Sundays. Unless the priest, or the reporting person, knew the deceased's exact birthday, they had to put up with death age in years and months only
- my guess for the last word: Ruhr (dysentery), Maria's cause of death

Thanks, hhg, your thought has confirmed what I was thinking about the death age as well.
I looked again for the last word and found several on page 6 in the Todenrodel (in July and August of 1802). These examples were easier to read (at least for me) than the one in Maria's record. You are right and I can see Ruhr as Maria's cause of death. Thanks again.

In the entries on page 6, the cause of death was written as athe Ruhr (if I read it correctly), I assume this has the same meaning as Ruhr in Maria's record?

[Debra Palmer]

Diese Ehe wurde am 6. Oktober 1769 in Oberdiessbach geschlossen (Rodel 27, Seite 18 / siehe Anhang)

I was already aware of the couple's marriage record in Oberdiessbach. Thanks, Walter, for pointing this out and attaching the image, which is helpful.

[hhg]

... In the entries on page 6, the cause of death was written as athe Ruhr (if I read it correctly) ...

It should be rothe Ruhr (in background of dysentery resulting in bloody excrements). There is also Weisse Ruhr - not sure whether this indicates an earlier state (before bleeding), or another sub-type. Makes not much difference for those who die from it ...

[Debra Palmer]

hhg, thank you for answering my question about Maria's cause of death - I appreciate it. The disease certainly caused suffering in these families.

[Debra Palmer]

I have a question about the word "allhier" (if I read it correctly) written after the date in the couple's marriage record in Oberdiessbach (see image above - attached by Walter). The translation is "here (in this place)", but what is the meaning of the word in the record?

[hhg]

you got it, allhier is a (nowadays outdated) version of hier. Sticking to your "here (in this place)", the imaginairy extension would be "here at Oberdiessbach" ...

[Debra Palmer]

Thanks again, hhg for your helpful answer.

[Debra Palmer]

I found the death record for a Barbara Künzi née Streit in the year 1806 in Kirchdorf (see attachment below). I already had a baptismal record for Barbara Streit, the daughter of Bentz Streit in der Insul and Christina Trachsel, dated 13.10.1743 in Kirchdorf (see attachment below). Using the baptismal date and the age at death of 62 years, 4 months and 10 days, I calculated a birth date of 08.10.1743, which is 5 days before the baptism. I am pretty sure the baptismal record and the death record are for the same person, because the calculated birth date is very close to the baptismal date. Also, I am sure that Barbara Streit and Maria Streit, who was baptized on 06.07.1749 (see attachment below) and died on 17.01.1804 (discussed earlier in this topic), were sisters. I think that their husbands Wilhelm Künzi and Hans Künzi were possibly brothers, which will be brought up later in a different topic.

Below is my transcription of the death record and I would appreciate help with a few questions:

[Date of death] Feb[ruar] 18 [1806]
[Date of burial] Feb[ruar] 21
Barbara Küentzi v[on] Jaberg geb[orene] Streit, Wilhelm K[üentzi?] sel[ig] Witwe - alt 62 J[ahr] 4 M[onat] 10 T[ag].

Question 1: Would the letter K after the name Wilhelm be an abbreviation for the surname Küentzi or could it mean something else?

Question 2: Is my translation correct? ... Barbara Künzi von Jaberg née Streit, the late Wilhelm K.?'s widow ...

Question 3: In Barbara's baptismal record, her father was Bentz Strÿtt in der Insul rather than von Jaberg. My understanding is Barbara's place of citizenship von Jaberg (in the death record) would have been through her marriage to Wilhelm Künzi?

[Debra Palmer]

This is the information I have for Bentz/Bendicht Strÿtt/Streit and Christina Trachsel:

Bendicht Streit in der Insel
oo 22.02.1743 in Kirchdorf
Christina Trachsel von Jaberg

Children (all baptismal records are in Kirchdorf, Taufrodel 3):

1. Barbara ~ 13.10.1743 (Seite 12), + 18.02.1806 in Kirchdorf, oo 18.02.1763 in Kirchdorf, Wilhelm Künzi von Jaberg
2. Anna ~ 11.07.1745 (Seite 15), + 1748
3. Jost ~ 05.03.1747 (Seite 18)
4. Maria ~ 06.07.1749 (Seite 23), + 17.01.1804 in Kirchdorf, oo 06.10.1769 in Oberdiessbach, Johannes Künzi von Jaberg
5. Anna ~ 11.04.1751 (Seite 29)
6. Salome ~ 24.06.1753 (Seite 35)
7. Christina ~ 30.11.1755 (Seite 42)
8. Christen ~ 21.05.1758 (Seite 52)
9. Jost ~ 30.01.1761 (Seite 63)

[Peter.D]

Question 1: Would the letter K after the name Wilhelm be an abbreviation for the surname Küentzi or could it mean something else?

Question 2: Is my translation correct? ... Barbara Küentzi von Jaberg née Streit, the late Wilhelm K.?'s widow ...

Question 3: In Barbara's baptismal record, her father was Bentz Strÿtt in der Insul rather than von Jaberg. My understanding is Barbara's place of citizenship von Jaberg (in the death record) would have been through her marriage to Wilhelm Küentzi?

Hallo Debra

Ich lese die Texte gleich wie du. Nach meinem Verständnis hatte Wilhelm Künzi (immer heutige Schreibweisen) und damit auch seine Frau den Heimatort Jaberg, der immer zur Kirchgemeinde Kirchdorf gehörte.
Benedikt Streit wohnte im Weiler Insel, und war wohl Bürger von Kirchdorf.

Oder habe ich deine Frage nicht richtig verstanden?

Peter

[Walter]

Ich bin gleicher Meinung wie Peter.

Wenn ich die Fragen von Debra richtig verstehe, geht es ihr darum, ob das zwei Schwestern (Streit) waren, die zwei Brüder (Künzi) geheiratet haben. Und diese Frage lässt sich nur mit sehr genauer Recherche beantworten.

Dazu meine Fragen:
- Gibt es beim Sterbeeintrag der Maria Streit auch so genaue Altersangaben wie bei der Barbara?
- Gibt es Sterbeeinträge für die beiden Künzi-Ehemänner?
- Wie passen diese zu den entsprechenden Taufen?
- Gibt es einen Hinweis, warum die Maria Streit in Oberdiessbach geheiratet haben könnte?

Jaberg und Kirchdorf liegen zwar nicht so weit von Oberdiessbach entfernt, aber üblicherweise brauchten es damals einen gewichtigen Grund, um in einer "fremden" Kirchgemeinde zu heiraten.

[Wolf]

The "problem" with the Bürgerort for the Streit family is that both, Jaberg and Kirchdorf are a Bürgerort for Streit ... and they are neighbouring communities, both belonging to the parish of Kirchdorf. The hamlet "Insel" belongs to the community Kirchdorf, but by marrying Wilhelm Künzi of Jaberg, Barbara Streit will be citizen of Jaberg anyway. Therefore, as Peter ponted out, she will likely have been citizen of Kirchdorf by birth (before getting married). Unfortunately in the marriage record of Barbara's parents her father's Bürgerort is not mentioned - just that he lived "in der Insel".

Should this dicussion be merged with the existing topic Streit von Kirchdorf BE?

[Debra Palmer]

Ich lese die Texte gleich wie du. Nach meinem Verständnis hatte Wilhelm Künzi (immer heutige Schreibweisen) und damit auch seine Frau den Heimatort Jaberg, der immer zur Kirchgemeinde Kirchdorf gehörte.
Benedikt Streit wohnte im Weiler Insel, und war wohl Bürger von Kirchdorf.

Oder habe ich deine Frage nicht richtig verstanden?

Peter
yes, you understood my third question correctly (I realize now it was a little unclear). What I was especially interested in was the place of citizenship for Benedikt Streit, and your answers helped to clear up the questions I had, including that he was probably a citizen of Kirchdorf. Thank you, and I also appreciate the map of Insel.

[Debra Palmer]

Wenn ich die Fragen von Debra richtig verstehe, geht es ihr darum, ob das zwei Schwestern (Streit) waren, die zwei Brüder (Künzi) geheiratet haben. Und diese Frage lässt sich nur mit sehr genauer Recherche beantworten.

Dazu meine Fragen:
- Gibt es beim Sterbeeintrag der Maria Künzi auch so genaue Altersangaben wie bei der Barbara?
- Gibt es Sterbeeinträge für die beiden Streit-Ehemänner?
- Wie passen diese zu den entsprechenden Taufen?
- Gibt es einen Hinweis, warum die Maria Künzi in Oberdiessbach geheiratet haben könnte?

Jaberg und Kirchdorf liegen zwar nicht so weit von Oberdiessbach entfernt, aber üblicherweise brauchten es damals einen gewichtigen Grund, um in einer "fremden" Kirchgemeinde zu heiraten.

Walter
yes, one of the questions I am asking is whether there were two sisters (Streit) who married two brothers (Künzi).

My answers to your questions:

The death record for Maria Streit is attached to the beginning part of this discussion, and the age details give the years and months only, so it is not as precise as those for Barbara.

I have found a possible baptismal record and death record for both Hans Künzi and Wilhelm Künzi. As for the birth year and age at death, neither of them match up precisely for either of the men. I will attach these records along with other information I have found in Künzi von Jaberg BE, and would appreciate help to verify whether or not the records are likely to be the correct ones.

Thank you for these helpful questions.

[Debra Palmer]

Wolf wrote: The "problem" with the Bürgerort for the Streit family is that both, Jaberg and Kirchdorf are a Bürgerort for Streit ... and they are neighbouring communities, both belonging to the parish of Kirchdorf. The hamlet "Insel" belongs to the community Kirchdorf, but by marrying Wilhelm Künzi of Jaberg, Barbara Streit will be citizen of Jaberg anyway. Therefore, as Peter ponted out, she will likely have been citizen of Kirchdorf by birth (before getting married). Unfortunately in the marriage record of Barbara's parents her father's Bürgerort is not mentioned - just that he lived "in der Insel".

Thank you, Wolf for your comment.

I found a possible baptismal record (year 1712) and a death record (year 1779) both in Kirchdorf, for Barbara's father Bendicht Streit. The index at the end of the Taufrodel listed only one "Bendicht Streit", so this is likely the right one. The death record gives an age at death that matches up with the year of baptism. Could the information is these two records help to confirm "the Bürgerort for the Streit family"?

[Walter]

Could the information is these two records help to confirm "the Bürgerort for the Streit family"?

Diese Streit sind (für mich eindeutig) Bürger von Kirchdorf.

[Wolf]

Perfect!
The burial record clearly states that Bendicht Streit was from Kirchdorf and lived in the "Untere Insel".
I'll rename the topic.