Liebenstein von Albisrieden ZH

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Hallo! Ich bin Amerikaner, daher bitte ich um Entschuldigung für mein Englisch.
I am researching my family that lived in Albisrieden, Zurich. Our name is Liebenstein, although there are different spellings, like Lybenstein, and Lowenstein. By the way, there is a Liebensteinstrasse in Albisrieden. I have been to and walked this street.

My earliest positively identified ancestor is Gorius Liebenstein, I have not found his baptism record, but he married Anna Meier in Albisrieden in 1597. https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=2051417
I am still trying to figure out who his parents were, but the Liebenstein family has many records at the Grossmunster many years before that. The earliest I've found at Grossmunster is Caspar Lybenstein in 1527, but there are older records in the Zurich archives. Some of these records are very interesting. It looks like Casper Lybenstein was operating a tavern/inn in Albisrieden (Rieden) called the Wiegen Inn. I'd really like to learn more about this Wiegen Inn, it sounds like a Las Vegas hotel/casino from what I've read! High stakes card games, brawls over women, bowling, and dice games, sometimes things escalated to the point that swords were drawn. Crazy!
Here are a few of the records
https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=4853259
https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=4786806
https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=4795575
https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=4777332
I'd like to access these records, but I don't know how to go about it.

There are many questions I could ask, but I don't want to go on too long. I just wanted to start a conversation and connect with others from the same place. Thanks for reading!

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urspr. Titel: Familie Liebenstein aus Albisrieden

[Peter.D]

I'd like to access these records, but I don't know how to go about it.

Hello Stefan,

The inventory A 27.nnn contains the records of the investigating judges (Untersuchungsrichter). These files are not available online and the originals are not easily legible in the period in question. However, the entries in the catalog provide a good summary of their content (Regesten). Depending on the outcome of the investigation, there may also be judgments by the competent authority, e.g., the council or the matrimonial court.

Peter

[Wolf]

There used to be a website about street names in Zürich - which unfortunately seems to be gone [seems to have been a temporary glitch]. The search enine I use still brings a short abstract for Liebensteinstrasse: "Das ehemalige Familiengeschlecht 'Liebenstein'. Hierbei handelt es sich um eine seit dem 15. Jahrhundert erwähnte Familie von Albisrieden, deren Stamm heute ausgestorben ist.".

Geneal-Tree mentions an Elisabeth Liebenstein, who married Johann Jacob Bermann in 1689.

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Thank for the responses Peter and Wolf! I'm very fortunate to have found these records, so if there isn't any more in them I'm still more than happy.

Wolf, I know of the website about Zurich streets. They do have Liebensteinstrasse, it's interesting that it was named in 1933. Both Haller and Wydler families of Albisrieden also have street names. I bookmarked the page.
https://www.alt-zueri.ch/strassen/l/lie ... rasse.html
There is also a Lybensteinweg over by Fällanden, but I don't know if there is any connection to my family. In that area there is Burgstelle Liebenstein. I can't find any information about that castle however.
https://www.burgenwelt.org/schweiz/lieb ... object.php

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Hey, we are not extinct!
Gregory Liebenstein, my 8th great-grandfather left Albisrieden around 1660 and moved to Duhren-Sinsheim, Germany. I believe another Liebenstein moved to Stebbach-Sinsheim around this time as well. We didn't all leave though. However, I did a quick search and couldn't find a Liebenstein record in Albisrieden after 1838. I wish I knew where they all went.

[Peter.D]

Stefan, could you already check the family registers of Albisrieden (Bürgerbücher)? Often, there are references to emigration or other reasons why the family no longer exists, at least on the male side. Unfortunately, those registers are not available online.

Peter

[Wolf]

"… Hierbei handelt es sich um eine seit dem 15. Jahrhundert erwähnte Familie von Albisrieden, deren Stamm heute ausgestorben ist."

Hey, we are not extinct!

Depends on your definition of "extinct". All Swiss citizens have a place of citizenship - and a line ("Stamm") is considered extinct if no one with this name and place of citizenship is still alive. As a consequence a line could be considered extinct even if people with this name are still Swiss citizens - which for Liebenstein is not the case. This does not exclude, of course, the possibility that many Liebensteins are living all over the globe … without holding Swiss citizenship.

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Stefan, could you already check the family registers of Albisrieden (Bürgerbücher)? Often, there are references to emigration or other reasons why the family no longer exists, at least on the male side. Unfortunately, those registers are not available online.

Peter

Thanks, Peter. Hopefully those may come available online someday.

Depends on your definition of "extinct". All Swiss citizens have a place of citizenship - and a line ("Stamm") is considered extinct if no one with this name and place of citizenship is still alive. As a consequence a line could be considered extinct even if people with this name are still Swiss citizens - which for Liebenstein is not the case. This does not exclude, of course, the possibility that many Liebensteins are living all over the globe … without holding Swiss citizenship.

Thanks for the clarification Wolf!

Does anyone know if Grossmunster church baptism records are available from before 1525 when I believe it was called the St. Felix and Regula?

[Peter.D]

Does anyone know if Grossmunster church baptism records are available from before 1525 when I believe it was called the St. Felix and Regula?

No, church records only begin in 1525. Before that, baptisms were not recorded, but personal data can of course be found in other sources that are not so easily accessible. With very few exceptions, Zurich has the earliest church records in the whole of Switzerland.

Peter

[Stefan Liebenstein]

No, church records only begin in 1525. Before that, baptisms were not recorded, but personal data can of course be found in other sources that are not so easily accessible. With very few exceptions, Zurich has the earliest church records in the whole of Switzerland.

Peter

Thanks for the info, Peter. I have considered hiring someone in Zurich that could access some of those older records. I'd just like to know how far back the Liebensteins lived there. There was a Lowenstein family in the Bern Canton, primarily near Frutigen. There are records in the Bern archives dating back to the 1300s of that family, but I'm unsure if I have any connection to them. I know of one member of that family that came to America, and one of my Y-DNA matches may be a descendant of him. The estimated year that myself and that Y-DNA match diverged is around 1250.

[Stefan Liebenstein]

I learned today that one of the Liebenstiens was killed at the Mord von Greifensee. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mord_von_Greifensee
His name is on the Gedenkstätte auf der «Blutmatte» which is pictured here.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:N%C ... _Opfer.jpg

This does point to the Liebenstein name being Libenstal previously. Any insight into the name how was changed? Is that Libenstal maybe just closer to how Liebenstein would have pronounced back in the 1400s?

[Peter.D]

This does point to the Liebenstein name being Libenstal previously. Any insight into the name how was changed? Is that Libenstal maybe just closer to how Liebenstein would have pronounced back in the 1400s?

Tal and Stein do not sound particularly related. In addition, Liebenstein and Liebenstal (Libenstal, Libenstall) existed at around the same time, as documents in the state archives show.
Since the family has long since become extinct in Zurich, there is apparently no literature on the subject, such as the book “Zürcher Familiennamen”, in which neither of them are mentioned, of course.

Peter

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Tal and Stein do not sound particularly related. In addition, Liebenstein and Liebenstal (Libenstal, Libenstall) existed at around the same time, as documents in the state archives show.
Since the family has long since become extinct in Zurich, there is apparently no literature on the subject, such as the book “Zürcher Familiennamen”, in which neither of them are mentioned, of course.

Peter

Thanks for the reply Peter! I can say the many variations of our name has led to much confusion unfortunately. From my research the latest I find Libenstal is 1478 and the earliest Liebenstein I find is 1504, so I haven't found any overlap yet.
https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=1446939 Libenstal, Albisrieden 1478
https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ID=4663399 Liebenstein, Lake Greifensee 1504

I have known of the Gross Lybenstein and Klein Lybenstein forests for some time, and this looks to be where the Liebensteins of Albisrieden came from. The first mention of a Libenstal in Albisrieden I've found in 1452. https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ?ID=480414

[Peter.D]

so I haven't found any overlap yet

But on the memorial stone remembering 1444 we read M[eiste]r. Libenstein. The information there probably comes from a military roster that has not been digitized.

I've been to the area many times, but I've never seen the monument ...

Peter

[Stefan Liebenstein]

That's a valid point, but that memorial was built in 1842 and it's unclear from where they sourced the names for it. At least from archival records, which are in period, there doesn't appear to be any overlap. Meister Libenstein is listed as being from Zurich, but there are no archive records of any Libensteins in Zurich in that time period. The person that wrote what I attached above came to the conclusion that the spelling of the name changed. It does seem to be supported by evidence. This record from 1456 has an area described as "die Äcker im Libenstal". It's in the area of Pfaffhusen and Fällanden, where the area Lybenstein also seems to be. https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ?ID=480825

There is a village named Liebenstein about 160km east of Zurich. The spelling of the name changed from Liubest (no-stein on the end) to Liebenstein over the years. This link below shows the evolution of the name over time. It seems reasonable to me that Libenstal could have changed to Liebenstein in a similar fashion in Zurich.
https://www.geschichte-bayerns.de/ortsn ... NL1Azgm7eQ

[Stefan Liebenstein]

I found Libenstal in the Die Steuerbücher von Stadt und Landschaft Zürich des XIV. und XV. Jahrhunderts. This also connects the Libenstal and Liebenstein names. I've attached a screenshot from the book. Now I need to find where the books are that this index points to.

[Stefan Liebenstein]

I found two Libenstals in the Zurich Militia Muster of 1442/1443 and they are both in the Roofer and Carpenter Guild. And got me thinking. I'm just speculating here, but since we know they were clearing the Lybenstein forest, I wonder if they were clearing the forest to use the trees for their building projects?

[Peter.D]

Now I need to find where the books are that this index points to.

The originals of the property tax registers are held at the State Archives in Zurich. The printed edition from the first half of the 20th century is available in various libraries. For information on the holdings, see here. To my knowledge, neither the originals nor the printed version are available online.

Peter

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Good to know. Thanks for the help Peter. I think some of the records may here.https://archive.org/search?query=creato ... %BCrich%22

[Peter.D]

Liebenstein is also a common place name in Germany. Try searching for it with basemap.de. There is even a Liebenstall in Germany. I wouldn't assume there is any connection.

Peter

[fridobw]

Liebenstein from Albisrieden and Wollishofen took part in the Zurich Freischiessen (marksmen's competition) of 1504.

fridobw

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Liebenstein from Albisrieden and Wollishofen took part in the Zurich Freischiessen (marksmen's competition) of 1504.

fridobw

Wow! That's so cool! Thanks for sharing that fridobw! Good to know some Liebensteins lived in Wollihofen. The tax record index I attached above has Wettswil as a place they lived also.
I'm amazed that these records still exist from so long ago. It's kind of funny that I find more information on my family in the 1500s and 1600s than the 1700s and 1800s. Many thanks to the people of Zurich for maintaining these records and making them available.

Liebenstein is also a common place name in Germany. Try searching for it with basemap.de. There is even a Liebenstall in Germany. I wouldn't assume there is any connection.

Peter

Thanks, Peter. I have researched the Liebensteins in Germany quite a bit. Most of the records are of the Liebenstein noble family, which doesn't have any connection to my family. The fact that my Liebensteins moved to the same area is just a coincidence to me. It's interesting that there is a Liebenstall street in that area. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'm wondering if the Libenstal name refers to a "Lovely" Valley they lived in and that's possibly how it became their name? Here's a example https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieblosental.
The stadt map on the Zurich website has info on both Liebensteinstasse and Lybensteinweg. For Liebensteinstrasse it says, "Eine seit dem 15. Jahrhundert in Albisrieden nachgewiesene, mittlerweile ausgestorbene Familie, ursprünglich Lybenstal". For Lybensteinweg is says, "Flurname «Lybenstein», abgleitet von den gleichnamigen, mittlerweile ausgestorbenen Grundbesitzern". The website https://idiotikon.ch/ has info on the Libenstal, Libenstein and Lybenstein place names as well.
https://search.ortsnamen.ch/de/record/7072409 (Libenstein)
https://search.ortsnamen.ch/de/record/7017669 (Libenstal)
https://search.ortsnamen.ch/de/record/803365580 (Lybenstein)

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Here are a couple more Libenstein/Libenstal records I've found.

Heinrich Libenstein at a Freischiessen event held in Strasbourg, 1576.

1576 Shooting Comp.jpeg

Heinrich Liebenstein 1576.JPG

Meister Hanns Libenstal, Kloster Einsiedeln 1467

Hans Libenstal 1467.JPG

[Stefan Liebenstein]

One branch of Liebensteins is mentioned in Johann Heinrich Zedler's Universal Lexicon as being along the Rhine and in Switzerland.
https://www.zedler-lexikon.de/index.htm ... seite&l=de

Liebenstein (Rhine and Switzerland)
Liebenstein, or Liebenstain, Libenstein, Lebenstein, another noble family on the Rhine and in Switzerland, bears in a golden field and on the helmet in a golden wing two chequered chevrons of red and silver. The mantling (of the helmet) is red and gold. Coat of arms B.
II. p. 103. 105. V. p. 209. Perhaps some from the following lineage belong here.

I've also found some records of Liebenstein in some other parts of Switzerland. I'm not sure if they could be connected to my Liebensteins.
Here are two records of Liebenstein from the Luzern archives. Neither is very flattering.
https://query-staatsarchiv.lu.ch/detail.aspx?ID=1113408 Johans Liebenstein, wife Metze, brother Jenni, and daughter Grede ,1397 (It says Johans is from Buchrain)
https://query-staatsarchiv.lu.ch/detail.aspx?ID=1113448 Jenni Liebenstein, 1404
There is also a Jenni von Liebenstein in the 1357 person register of Lucerne.

Also in the Lucerne archives is Heinrich von Liebenstein, who was Almonser of Luzern Abbey from 1324 to 1346. He also got into some legal trouble. He is also recorded as being a monk of the Abbey earlier in 1314.
https://query-staatsarchiv.lu.ch/detail.aspx?ID=1954845
There is also a mention of a Berthold von Liebenstein being subdeacon at Lucerne Abbey 1290.

In the same time period there was a Albrecht von Liebenstein, monk appointed abbot at Basel Abbey in 1298. He was appointed by Murbach Abbey, which also owned Luzern Abbey.

Another interesting thing I found is that Wernher Schenks, who was killed at the battle of Sempach (1386) and was from Bremgarten, near Albisrieden, had a sister named Verena de Liebenstein.

[Stefan Liebenstein]

I received a page from the index for Volume II of the Steuerbücher von Stadt und Landschaft Zürich, from the Zurich Archives. I had previously posted the index page from Volumes III-VII above. Volume II is from 1401-1450, I believe. There are no Libenstal/Liebenstein in Volume I, so it may be that the family came to the Zurich area in the time period between Volume I and II. It's interesting that one spelling is Libenstat, but the "t" on the end is crossed out and corrected to "l". I've been thinking about the possibility they came from the village of Liebstadt (Switzerland) northwest of Zurich along the Rhine River, and that this could the basis for the family name. On the other hand, the Liebenstein's do seem to disappear from the Lucerne records at around this time, but there is no indication that the Libenstal name was used as a spelling for their name. It's also interesting that it looks like the family in Altstetten was spelled with "stein" while the family across the lake still had "stal" in the spelling.

[Peter.D]

Hello Stefan

The original volumes do overlap chronologically. Were you able to find any entry for Albisrieden or Altstetten in Volume 1?

Peter

[Stefan Liebenstein]

Hello Stefan

The original volumes do overlap chronologically. Were you able to find any entry for Albisrieden or Altstetten in Volume 1?

Peter

Hi Peter!

I do have a PDF of the index for Volume 1, but there are no Liebenstal or Liebenstein in it. There a few names that start with Lieb, like Liebeknecht, Liebegg, and Liebtag. I wonder if the first volume just didn't include the areas where they were living yet. like Hirslanden, and Witikon?

[Peter.D]

I wonder if the first volume just didn't include the areas where they were living yet. like Hirslanden, and Witikon?

Yes, that was my first guess, too. Do you see, in the index for Volume 1, the communities where the Liebensteins appear later listed under other family names?

Peter

[Stefan Liebenstein]

I wonder if the first volume just didn't include the areas where they were living yet. like Hirslanden, and Witikon?

Yes, that was my first guess, too. Do you see, in the index for Volume 1, the communities where the Liebensteins appear later listed under other family names?

Peter

Thanks Peter for suggesting that. I'll have to do more research, but going by the index info I have the property listed as "124", which is on both indexes posted above may have been Ulrich Maness's property (Volume 1) before the Liebenstein's acquired it. I think it may be this one, https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ?ID=346741. I'm attaching a page from Volume 1 that I think could be same "124" in the later Volumes.

The property "17" may be this one https://suche.staatsarchiv.djiktzh.ch/d ... ?ID=434730. In volume one "17" is recorded as belonging the Vink (Fink) family.

I'll investigate this some more when I get some time. Thanks Peter!

[fridobw]

Volume VIII of the tax records, which serves as an index for Volumes III–VII, contains additional entries regarding Liebenstein (see image; unfortunately, I only have the index volume)
One son of Gorius Liebenstein and Catharina Steiner is Hans Liebenstein, born in 1658. He married Elisbeth Rosenberger, daughter of Hans Rosenberger (1612–1668) and Elisabeth Sintz (+1674), on April 20, 1686, in Albisrieden. (Hans Rosenberger *1612 is my wife’s 11th-generation ancestor.)
TAI 1.865; StadtAZH VIII.C. 169., EDB 254 Liebenstein, Hans, married to Rosenberger, Elisabeth, Landikon
April 20, 1686
fridobw

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