Künzi von Jaberg BE

[Wolf]

Kirchdorf-Ehe-17691002-Küenzi&Streit-Schein.jpg

Am 02.10.1769 stellt der Pastor von Kirchdorf dem Brautpaar Hans Küenzi von Jaberg und Maria Streit aus der Insel den (Verkünd-)Schein aus zur Vorlage in Dießbach. So weit, so klar: die Heirat fand am 06.10.1769 in Oberdiessbach statt.

Dann folgt aber "ni fallor" (wenn ich es richtig lese) - wäre das auf Lateinisch "Ich mache keinen Fehler"(?) - oder bedeutet es eher "Es ist kein Fehler" im Sinne von "Es besteht kein Ehehindernis"?

[Nico]

Hi Wolf,

„ni fallor“ hintangesetzt steht meines Wissens für ''meines Wissens“, „wie ich glaube“ oder „glaube ich“.

Gruß

[Wolf]

„ni fallor“ hintangesetzt steht meines Wissens für ''meines Wissens“, „wie ich glaube“ oder „glaube ich“.

Gut - aber was soll es bedeuten? Der Schreiber glaubt, dass es kein Ehehindernis gibt - oder er glaubt, einen Schein ausgestellt zu haben?

[Walter]

Gut - aber was soll es bedeuten? Der Schreiber glaubt, dass es kein Ehehindernis gibt - oder er glaubt, einen Schein ausgestellt zu haben?

Ich vermute der Schreiber war etwas unsicher bezüglich dem Ort der Heirat (Dießbach).

[Wolf]

OK - so könnte es Sinn machen: die Eheschliessung fand ja auch nicht in Diessbach statt, sondern Oberdiessbach. Dass er sich nicht sicher war, wollte der Schreiber aber nicht für jedermann verständlich dokumentieren - daher auf Latein .

[Walter]

... die Eheschliessung fand ja auch nicht in Diessbach statt, sondern Oberdiessbach.

Vor 1870 wurde Oberdiessbach als "Dießbach" oder "Dießbach bei Thun" bezeichnet.
Und die lateinische Bemerkung hat vermutlich auch etwas mit "Standesdünkel" zu tun

[Debra Palmer]

I am looking for the baptismal record for Hans Künzi von Jaberg, so I can identify who his parents were. He married Maria Streit von Kirchdorf in 1769 in Oberdiessbach, and their marriage record was discussed earlier in the topic (see the attached record above). I know that his sister-in-law Barbara Streit (the older sister of his wife) married Wilhelm Künzi in 1763 in Kirchdorf. I am trying to prove that Hans Künzi was the brother of Wilhelm Künzi, because I think possibly sisters married brothers.

In “Streit von Kirchdorf BE”, Walter wrote:
“... geht es ihr [Debra] darum, ob das zwei Schwestern (Streit) waren, die zwei Brüder (Künzi) geheiratet haben. Und diese Frage lässt sich nur mit sehr genauer Recherche beantworten.

Dazu meine Fragen:
- Gibt es beim Sterbeeintrag der Maria Streit auch so genaue Altersangaben wie bei der Barbara?
- Gibt es Sterbeeinträge für die beiden Künzi-Ehemänner?
- Wie passen diese zu den entsprechenden Taufen?
- Gibt es einen Hinweis, warum die Maria Streit in Oberdiessbach geheiratet haben könnte?
Jaberg und Kirchdorf liegen zwar nicht so weit von Oberdiessbach entfernt, aber üblicherweise brauchten es damals einen gewichtigen Grund, um in einer "fremden" Kirchgemeinde zu heiraten.”

Hans Künzi von Jaberg
oo 06.10.1769 Oberdiessbach
Maria/Mareÿ Streit von Kirchdorf, ~ 06.07.1749 Kirchdorf, + 17.01.1804 Kirchdorf
Children (all baptized in Kirchdorf):
Bendicht, ~ 25.02.1770, + 15.11.1830 Kirchdorf (died unmarried)
Johannes, ~ 27.09.1772, + 17.02.1846 Kirchdorf
Christian, ~ 08.01.1775, + 08.04.1778 Kirchdorf
Jost, ~ 13.04.1777, + 22.04.1778 Kirchdorf
Anna, ~ 18.04.1779, + 19.03.1783 Kirchdorf
Salome, ~ 30.09.1781
Christina, ~ 09.11.1783, oo 09.12.1808 Oberdiessbach, Hans Baumgartner von Bremgarten
Maria, ~ 26.03.1786
Barbara, 07.09.1788 (note in baptism record: obÿt ante Bapt.), + 1788 Kirchdorf
Anna, ~ 02.06.1791, + 25.06.1849 Kirchdorf, oo 18.05.1811 Thierachern, Peter Krebs von Kirchdorf

I looked for Hans Künzi’s death record in Kirchdorf because that is where their children were baptized. I searched a 14-year range, beginning in 1790 which was one year before his last child was born, and ending in 1804 when his wife Maria Streit died (her death record stated she was the “hinterlaß[en] Witwe”, so Maria died after Hans). I found only one death record for a “Hans Küentzi” in 1792 (see attached record below). Unfortunately, the record did not give an occupation, the wife's name, or a precise age, which would have been nice; however, what is helpful, is it states that he was “von Jaberg, ein Ehemann”. This record could very well be the death record for Maria Streit’s husband Hans Künzi, because this man had been married, was of Jaberg, and died between the years 1790 and 1804. Reference: Kirchdorf, Totenrodel 13, Seite 85.
Question: The age was "alt beÿ 47 Jahr". What does the word “beÿ” mean in the record, and would it affect my calculated birth year of 1745?

I looked for a baptismal record for Hans Künzi around 1745 (when based on the 1792 death record); however, I intentionally choose a wider range of dates so I would not miss anyone. I searched in Kirchdorf between 1715 and 1746 (by hand and also using the index at the end of the Taufrodel) and found five possible records:

1. Hanß Küentzi, ~ 9.06.1715. His age would be 54 years and Maria Streit’s age would be 20 years when they got married; he would be 76 years old when the couple’s last child was born; he would be 77 years old in 1792, which is 30 years older than the age given in the death record. The father was Wilhelm Küentzi (no “von” was mentioned) Jab[er]g. I think this record is not the correct one, because the age does not match up to the death record (a 30-year difference is a lot). At the same time, I am supposing that the 1792 death record is the correct one. Reference: Kirchdorf, Taufrodel 2, Seite 42.

2. Hanß Küentzi, ~ 23.06.1720. His age would be 49 years and Maria Streit’s age would be 20 years when they got married; he would be 71 years old when the couple’s last child was born; he would be 72 years old in 1792, which is 25 years older than the age given in the death record. The father was Peter Küentzi (no place of citizenship was mentioned). I think this record is not the correct one for the same reason as for the baptismal record in 1715. Reference: Kirchdorf, Taufrodel 2, Seite 72.

3. Hans Küntzi, ~ 21.12.1731. His age would be 38 years and Maria Streit’s age would be 20 years when they got married; he would be 60 years old when the couple’s last child was born; he would be 61 years old in 1792, which is 14 years older than the age given in the death record. The father was Hans Küntzi von Jaberg. The year of this record does not match up closely to the estimated birth year of 1745. I think this record is probably not the correct one. Reference: Kirchdorf, Taufrodel 2, Seite 137.

4. Johannes Küntzi, ~ 14.06.1744. His age would be 25 years and Maria Streit’s age would be 20 years when they got was married; he would be 47 years old when the couple’s last child was born. The father was Bendicht Küntzi von Jaberg. The year of this record matches up closely with the estimated birth year of 1745 from the 1792 death record. I think this record is most probably the correct one. Reference: Kirchdorf, Taufrodel 3, Seite 13 (see attached record below).

5. Johannes Küentzi, ~ 30.07.1746. His age would be 23 years and Maria Streit’s age would be 20 years when they got married; he would be 45 years old when the couple’s last child was born. The father was Hans Küentzi von Uttigen (not Jaberg). I found the marriage record for the parents Hans Küentzi and Anna Haler dated 20.04.1744 in Kirchdorf, and it also stated “von Uttigen” for the father. I think this record is not the correct one because the father’s place of citizenship would have to come from Jaberg. Reference: Kirchdorf, Taufrodel 3, Seite 17.

I would appreciate any thoughts.

[Debra Palmer]

Wilhelm Künzi von Jaberg
oo 18.02.1763 Kirchdorf
Barbara Streit von Kirchdorf, ~ 13.10.1743 Kirchdorf, + 18.02.1806 Kirchdorf
Children (all baptized in Kirchdorf):
Bendicht, ~ 16.10.1763
Maria, ~ 23.02.1766
Christen, ~ 24.07.1768
Barbara, ~ 26.12.1773
Christina, ~ 21.05.1775

I looked in Kirchdorf for Wilhelm Künzi’s death record and searched a 31-year range, beginning in 1774, which was one year before his last child was born, and ending in 1806 when his wife Barbara Streit died (her death record stated, “Wilhelm K[üentzis] sel[ig] Witwe”, so Barbara died after Wilhelm). I found two death records for “Wilhelm Künzi von Jaberg”. The first Wilhelm died in 1780 and was 79 years old, which is the wrong age to be a brother of Hans Künzi. The other Wilhelm died in 1786 and was 49 years old, which gives a calculated birth year of 1737. This record could possibly be the correct one (see attached record below). Unfortunately, the death record did not give a wife’s name, or a precise age, but it gave an occupation of “Schiffmann”. Hans Künzi (the husband of Maria Streit) was also a “Schiffmann”, as mentioned in four of the ten baptismal records for their children (Salome, Christina, Maria and Barbara). So, Wilhelm Künzi who died in 1786 and Hans Künzi, had a lot in common.
Question: The age was "beÿ 49 Jahr alt". I am asking the same question (as above) about the word “beÿ”?

I looked in Kirchdorf for Wilhelm Künzi’s baptism record with a birth year of around 1737, while searching a wide range of dates between 1709 and 1745. I found just two baptism records:

1. Willhelm Jacob Küntzi. ~ 20.07.1738, + 1739. The father was Jacob Küntzi von Jaberg. The year of this record matches up closely with the estimated birth year of 1737, but there is a note in the record that says, “starb 1739”, so the child died young. Reference: Kirchdorf, Taufrodel 2, Seite 174.

2. Willhelm Küntzi. ~ 29.10.1741. The parents were Bendicht Küntzi von Jaberg and Verena Meÿer, which matches up with the parents in the baptism record for Johannes Küntzi in 1744 (baptism no. 4 above). Therefore, the two boys were brothers. The problem is the estimated birth year of 1737 (from the 1786 death record for Wilhelm Künzi) does not match up very closely to the baptism year of 1741 – there is difference of four years. Reference: Kirchdorf, Taufrodel 3, Seite 7 (see attached record below).

Any thoughts?

[Debra Palmer]

I am trying to find a relative such as a sibling, who was a baptismal witness for one of the children of Hans Künzi or Wilhelm Künzi, to prove that they were brothers. I found the following witnesses whose name was either Kunzi or Streit (the maiden name of the wife):

Hans Künzi and Maria Streit’s children (see attached records below):
1. Bendicht ~ 1770, witness: Wilhelm Küentzi von Jaberg
2. Johannes ~ 1772, witness: Wilhelm Küentzi der alte von Jaberg
3. Christina ~ 1783, witness: Benz Küentzi von Jaberg

I would appreciate any thoughts.

[Debra Palmer]

Wilhelm Künzi and Barbara Streit’s children (see attached images below):
I would appreciate help to finish transcribing and translating any missing word and the words that I think are in Latin.

1.Bendicht ~ 16.10.1763 Kirchdorf, witnesses:
Hans Küentzi, _? von Uttigen
Barbara Wÿniger gebohrne Küentzi soror

2. Barbara ~ 26.12.1773 Kirchdorf, witness:
Christina Streit, aus der Insel

3. Christina ~ 21.05.1775 Kirchdorf, witnesses:
Hanns Küentzi, frat[er] Ma?,
Salome Streit, Sorore? Uxorit
Christina Streit, Sorore? Uxorit

Any thoughts?

[Walter]

1.Bendicht ~ 16.10.1763 Kirchdorf, witnesses:
Hans Küentzi, Chorrichter von Uttigen
Barbara Wÿniger gebohrne Küentzi soror (sister)

2. Barbara ~ 26.12.1773 Kirchdorf, witness:
Bendicht Läderach v(on) Conolfingen
Christina Streit, aus der Insel
Barbara Trachsel von Jaberg

3. Christina ~ 21.05.1775 Kirchdorf, witnesses:
Hanns Küentzi, frat[er] Mariti (father's broder),
Salome Streit, Sorores Uxoris
Christina Streit, Sorores Uxoris (both sisters of the mother)

[Walter]

Question: The age was "beÿ 49 Jahr alt". I am asking the same question (as above) about the word “beÿ”?

Beÿ (today "bei" means at or around)
"Beÿ" is therefore an estimate of the age.

[Walter]

Ich bezweifle, dass Wilhelm Künzi, Ehemann der Barbara Streit, der 1741 geborene Sohn von Bendicht K. und Verena Meyer ist.

Bei der Taufe der Tochter Barbara lese ich bei ihm: "von Jaberg jun", was ich so interpretiere, dass sein Vater auch Wilhelm geheissen hat.

Bei der Taufe von Johannes Künzi, Sohn des Hans K., ist der zweite Taufzeuge mit "Wilhelm Küenzi der alt" notiert worden, das müsste also ein "älterer" Wilhelm Künzi sein.

Dann findet man im Eherodel 1 von Kirchdorf (Seite 191, siehe Anhang) den Eintrag eines Wilhelm Küenzi von Jaberg, verheiratet am 15. Juni 1725 mit einer Maria Brunni (Bruni) von Stoken (= Oberstocken).

Leider habe ich zu diesem Ehepaar bis dato keine Taufen gefunden.

Kirchdorf_1-191_oo1725.jpg

[Debra Palmer]

Thank you, Walter for pointing out that Wilhelm Künzi (husband of Barbara Streit) was described as "jun:". I had read the word as junior, and I assumed it just meant he was the younger of two men with the same name. I appreciate your interpretation: "dass sein Vater auch Wilhelm geheissen hat". I also doubt now, that Wilhelm Kunzi's father was named Bendicht.

... Dann findet man im Eherodel 1 von Kirchdorf (Seite 191, siehe Anhang) den Eintrag eines Wilhelm Küenzi von Jaberg, verheiratet am 15. Juni 1725 mit einer Maria Brunni (Bruni) von Stoken (= Oberstocken).

Leider habe ich zu diesem Ehepaar bis dato keine Taufen gefunden.

I looked for a baptismal record for Wilhelm Künzi (born around 1737) in Kirchdorf's neighboring "Kirchgemeinden", which would need to include: Wichtrach, Steffisburg, Thierachern, Gurzelen, Mühlethurnen, Gerzensee, Belp, Oberdiessbach, and Thun (the Taufrodel in Thun has baptisms starting in 1793, which is not early enough). Unfortunately, I also could not find a baptismal record for a Wilhelm Künzi who was the son of Wilhelm Künzi and Maria Brunni.

I did find burial records in Kirchdorf for the couple Wilhelm Künzi on 17.06.1780 and Maria Brunni on 10.04.1764 (see images below). I found Wilhelm's marriage in Kirchdorf (after Maria Brunni died in 1764) to Elisabeth Trachsel on 17.08.1764 (see image below), and Maria's marriage (after Wilhelm Künzi died in 1780) to Peter Berger on 05.07.1781 (see image below). Perhaps these records might provide information that helps our "cause". If these records do not lead to finding the parents of Wilhelm Künzi (the husband of Barbara Streit), then, at least we can conclude that Barbara Streit and Maria Streit (the wife of Hans Künzi) are sisters, because the age in their death records match up really well to the dates of their baptismal records, which have the same set of parents!

As I already wrote, I think Barbara Streit's brother-in-law Hans Künzi died on 27.11.1792, because when I searched for Hans' death record in Kirchdorf beginning in 1790 which was one year before his last child was born, and ending in 1804 when his wife Maria Streit died (her death record stated she was the “hinterlaß[en] Witwe”), I found only one death record for a “Hans Küentzi”. Unfortunately, the record did not give an occupation, the wife's name, or a precise age, which would have been nice; however, what is helpful, is it states that he was “von Jaberg, ein Ehemann”. This record could very well be the death record for Maria Streit’s husband Hans Künzi, because this man had been married, was of Jaberg, and died between the years 1790 and 1804. In the Taufrodel in Kirchdorf, I found a Johannes Küntzi, baptized on 4.06.1744, who was the son of Bendicht Künzi and Verena Meÿer. His age would be 25 years and Maria Streit’s age would be 20 years when they got married, and he would be 47 years old when the couple’s last child was born. The year 1744 of the baptismal record is off one year from the estimated birth year of 1745 from the 1792 death record. I think this baptismal record is the correct one. So, I now have the names of Hans Künzi's parents Bendicht Künzi and Verena Meÿer.

The first image below is the death record in 1764 for Maria Brunni, the wife of Wilhelm Künzi.

I would appreciate corrections to my effort to transcribe the marriage of Wilhelm Künzi and Elsbeth Trachsel in 1764 (see transcription and second image below).

Questions: I think Wilhelm's occupation was a farmer? The word "alters" is written at the end of the 4th line, and I do not know what it means? When I used an online translator, parts of the translation did not make sense. I would appreciate translation help too.

Any thoughts?

den 17 Aug[ust] [1764] copulati
Willhelm Küentzi, von Jaberg, vidua[tus]
Elsbeth Trachsel, v[on] Jaberg.
mit Schein von Früllmeister, daß Er alters
halber nicht mehr und die Früll gehörn.
NB Habe ihne? einen Schein gegebe[n], umb sich anderwerts
einsegnin zu laßen, wage? größe der Aar sind
sin hier copulirt worden, den Schein den Er mir
Zurubegeben sollen, hat der Küentzi, win Er sagt.
grad Zerrißen.

[Debra Palmer]

I would appreciate any corrections to my transcription of the death record for Wilhelm Künzi in 1780 (see transcription and 1st image below).

The second image is the marriage of Elisabeth Trachsel (widow of Wilhelm) to Peter Berger in 1781.

Question: I see the word "alt" written after the name. Could this confirm that the Wilhelm Künzi in this record was probably the same "Wilhelm Küenzi der alte", who was a baptismal witness for the child Johannes baptized on 27.09.1772 (see image above)? I would appreciate help with the translation of the occupation and the residence.

den 17 Junÿ [1780] obÿt et 19 Sepel?
Wilhelm Künzi, alt Kirchmeÿer von Jaberg, jetz? zu Mühlidorf, alt beÿ 79 Jahre.

[Debra Palmer]

I think the following three records are related to the baptismal witness "Barbara Wÿniger gebohrne Küentzi soror" (see images below - Barbara's marriage to Christian Wÿniger in 1761, the baptismal record for their daughter Anna in 1762, and the death record for Barbara in 1766), of the child Bendicht Künzi (son of Wilhelm Künzi and Barbara Streit) who was baptized on 16.10.1763 (see image of Bendicht's baptism above).

Question: as a baptismal witness for Bendicht (the son of Wilhelm Künzi and Barbara Streit), Barbara is the "soror" of the father. So her father would also be Wilhelm Künzi?

Any thoughts?

[Debra Palmer]

I think this is the second marriage of Barbara Küenzi's husband Christian Wÿniger (who would be a widower) to Maria Marti on 31.07.1767 in Gerzensee.

[Walter]

den 17 Aug[ust] [1764] copulati
Willhelm Küentzi, von Jaberg, vidua[tus]
Elsbeth Trachsel, v[on] Jaberg.
mit Schein vom Trüllmeister, daß Er alters
halber nicht mehr ?und? die Trüll gehöre.
NB Habe ihnen einen Schein gegebe[n], umb sich anderwerts
einsegnen zu laßen, wegen größe der Aar sind
sie hier copulirt worden, den Schein den Er mir
Zurukgeben sollen, hat der Küentzi, wie Er sagt.
grad Zerrißen.

Trüllmeister war ein militärischer Grad, der Trüllmeister (auch Drillmeister) leitete die wiederkehrenden Exerzier- oder Trülltage.

[Walter]

Question: I see the word "alt" written after the name. Could this confirm that the Wilhelm Künzi in this record was probably the same "Wilhelm Küenzi der alte", who was a baptismal witness for the child Johannes baptized on 27.09.1772 (see image above)? I would appreciate help with the translation of the occupation and the residence.

den 17 Junÿ [1780] obÿt et 19 Sepel?
Wilhelm Künzi, alt Kirchmeÿer von Jaberg, jetz(t) zu Mühlidorf, alt beÿ 79 Jahre.

Dieser Wilhelm Künzi wurde als "alt Kirchmeyer" bezeichnet, er war also der alte (= frühere) Kirchmeier (Verwalter des Kirchenguts), er wohne jetzt (vor seinem Tode) in Mühledorf.

Das Wort "Sepel" ist vermutlich ein lateinischer Begriff für die Beerdigung, er ist also wohl am 17. Juni verstorben und am 19. begraben worden.

[Walter]

Question: as a baptismal witness for Bendicht (the son of Wilhelm Künzi and Barbara Streit), Barbara is the "soror" of the father. So her father would also be Wilhelm Künzi?

Ja, die Taufzeugin "Barbara Wyniger, gebor(e)ne Küentzi" war die Schwester von Wilhelm Küentzi, dem Vater des Kindes.

[Walter]

I looked for a baptismal record for Wilhelm Künzi (born around 1737) in Kirchdorf's neighboring "Kirchgemeinden", which would need to include: Wichtrach, Steffisburg, Thierachern, Gurzelen, Mühlethurnen, Gerzensee, Belp, Oberdiessbach, and Thun (the Taufrodel in Thun has baptisms starting in 1793, which is not early enough). Unfortunately, I also could not find a baptismal record for a Wilhelm Künzi who was the son of Wilhelm Künzi and Maria Brunni.

Thun ist leider ein "schwarzes Loch", dort sind die früheren Kirchenbücher bei einem Brand vernichtet worden!

[Walter]

The second image is the marriage of Elisabeth Trachsel (widow of Wilhelm) to Peter Berger in 1781.

Diese Ehe wurde in Thurnen (= Mühlethurnen) geschlossen (eingesegnet).

Mühlethurnen_19-73_oo1781.jpg

[Debra Palmer]

Thank you, Walter for all your efforts - I appreciate your help!