Siegrist von Meisterschwanden AG

[Peter.D]

Sowohl von den Kirchenbüchern von Seengen (Meisterschwanden gehörte bis 1819 zu dieser Kirchgemeinde) wie auch von Schinznach gibt es Mikrofilme im Staatsarchiv Aargau.

Ähnlich wie Bern wollten die Kirchgemeinden auch im Aargau den Mormonen die Verfilmung nicht erlauben. Im Gegensatz zu Bern sind jedoch im Aargau bei weitem nicht alle Kirchenbücher verfilmt worden. In Bern und im Aargau wurden Schweizer Firmen mit der Verfilmung beauftragt. Brugg und wenige andere aargauische Städte sind ein Spezialfall, weil sich dort die Kirchenbücher bereits im jeweiligen Stadtarchiv befanden und nicht mehr bei den Kirchgemeinden.

Zu Schinznach gibt es für die fragliche Zeit sogar ein separates Verkündregister mit alphabetischem Verzeichnis, ebenfalls verfilmt.

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

Wolf: Thank you, for correcting the witnesses' surnames and I appreciate the link to the map - I expected Gottstatt to be in canton Aargau rather then in Bern.

Peter: Thank you, for explaining the meaning of "hiesig" and when most couples got married (often while the future wife was pregnant) during that era - which are very helpful.
Also, the details about Schein and Gottstatt are interesting.

Debra

[Debra Palmer]

As for Bernard's brother "John" c1815, there seemed to be no entry in the baptism register for a "Johann Siegrist" ... in the year 1815 in Brugg.

If Elisabeth Hauser died in May 1812, she obviously cannot be the mother of the stillborn boy in Feb 1813. Conclusion: Jakob Siegrist got married a second time - and for the Johann, born about 1815, we also have to look for a "new" mother.

The first time I searched the baptismal register in Brugg for Bernard Siegrist's brother "John" (born about 1815), I found the record (see below) for a "Johann Jakob Siegrist" and I assumed it was not the correct one because his mother is "Elisabeth Hermann from Schinznach", who is not the same mother "Elisabeth Hauser from Wädeschwÿl (Wädenswil ZH)" in Bernard's baptismal record, even though the father Jakob in both records has the same occupation and place of citizenship; However, this was before finding the death record for an "Elisabeth Hauser" (posted previously), transcribed as follows: ... 21/23. Mai [1812], Elisabeth Siegrist, geb.[orene] Hauser, des hiesigen Spenglers Frau, von Meisterschwanden, 36 J[Jahre alt], [gestorben an einer] [Gebär]Mutter Entzündung (= metritis).

Then I found a marriage proclamation record (posted previously) for a Jakob Siegrist (who is a widower) and Elisabeth Hermann from Schinznach, and transcribed as follows: Jun. 21, 28, Jul. 5. [1812] Meister Jakob Siegrist, Spengler, von Meisterschwanden, Hiesiger Hintersass - Viduus, Elisabetha Hermann, von Schinznach, Jul. 6. [1812].

If the Elisabeth Hauser who died in 1812 was the mother of Bernard Siegrist and his father Jakob then was married to Elisabeth Hermann from Schinznach, it now seems possible that the baptismal record dated 1815 in Brugg (see below) of "Johann Jakob" is for a half-brother of Bernard Siegrist.

The record below (from familysearch) is a copy of the entry and the reference is:
Tauf-Rodel, Brugg AG, page 303, entry 15.

I would appreciate if another forum member would check my transcription and make any needed corrections.

Question: Thode's dictionary lists Johann as an abbreviation for "J", but there are two "J" for the father's given names. For all of the records posted in this discussion, the groom/father is named "Jakob", except in the marriage record dated 1807, the groom is "Johann Jacob", thus I think that if the baptismal record below is for the same family, the father's name could be "Johann Jakob" ?
Also, the places of citizenship for the father and mother are a bit difficult to read, but are close to the spellings of: Meisterschwanden and
Schinznach?

[entry] 15.
Sept: 30. Octbr. 8. [1815]
[Name of child] Johann Jakob
[Names of parents] Mstr J[ohann] J[akob] Siegrist, v. Meisterschwanden Spengler.
Elisabeth Hermann, (v. Schinznach)
[Last column heading] Heimatz? Meisterschwanden

[Peter.D]

Hallo Debra

Ja, Johann Jakob war ein - vor allem in protestantischen Gegenden - sehr häufiger Vorname und wurde daher oft nur mit J.J. eingetragen. Als Rufname (given name) wurde er aber nicht verwendet; sie nannten sich Hans-Jakob, nur Jakob, Köbi etc. Im Übrigen ist deine Transkription korrekt, du kannst als die ? weglassen.

Die Spalte rechts aussen ist mit Heimath überschrieben, das h am Ende schreibt man heute nicht mehr.

Der Pate war Heinrich Urech von Othmarsingen.

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

Thank you, Peter for confirming the father's name and explaining the difference between "Vorname" and "Rufname". If the records (in this discussion) are indeed for the same family, then it makes sense to me that "Jakob" is frequently mentioned and less often "Johann Jakob / J. J." (I edited my transcription and deleted the ?).

Also, your transcription for the godfather is appreciated. Thanks again.

Debra

[Debra Palmer]

Ja, Johann Jakob war ein - vor allem in protestantischen Gegenden - sehr häufiger Vorname und wurde daher oft nur mit J.J. eingetragen. Als Rufname (given name) wurde er aber nicht verwendet; sie nannten sich Hans-Jakob, nur Jakob, Köbi etc.

I have another question about names:

If the baptismal record for "Johann Jakob" Siegrist in 1815 (posted previously) is the "John" (who was a brother of Bernard), perhaps his given name was "Hans-Jakob", and he was not be known as Jakob (as his father could have been) but as Hans and then later as John?

[Wolf]

Ja, Johann Jakob war ein - vor allem in protestantischen Gegenden - sehr häufiger Vorname und wurde daher oft nur mit J.J. eingetragen. Als Rufname (given name) wurde er aber nicht verwendet; sie nannten sich Hans-Jakob, nur Jakob, Köbi etc.

..., and he was not be known as Jakob (as his father could have been) but as Hans and then later as John?

I don't think he would have been called Hans in Switzerland. I would find more likely, that he came as "Johannes Jakob" to America - where the system of first and middle name was applied and made "John J." out if it - with the "J." often dismissed.

[Peter.D]

Eventuell hat man ihn Hans genannt, um Verwechslungen mit dem Vater zu vermeiden, der ebenfalls als Johann Jakob getauft wurde. In England war John dann auch einfacher.

Die Passregister aus der fraglichen Zeit sind im Staatsarchiv Aargau noch vorhanden, aber natürlich nicht online verfügbar. Falls er legal ausgereist ist, müsste er darin verzeichnet sein.

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

I don't think he would have been called Hans in Switzerland. I would find more likely, that he came as "Johannes Jakob" to America - where the system of first and middle name was applied and made "John J." out if it - with the "J." often dismissed.

Eventuell hat man ihn Hans genannt, um Verwechslungen mit dem Vater zu vermeiden, der ebenfalls als Johann Jakob getauft wurde. In England war John dann auch einfacher.

Die Passregister aus der fraglichen Zeit sind im Staatsarchiv Aargau noch vorhanden, aber natürlich nicht online verfügbar. Falls er legal ausgereist ist, müsste er darin verzeichnet sein.

Thanks to both of you. Your explanations are helpful about the name "John".
If there is an entry for Johann Jakob (and his brother Bernhard) in the passport registers, the information would be quite useful.

[Debra Palmer]

The baptismal record below is for Maria Theresia, daughter of Johann Jakob Siegrist and Elisabeth Herrmann. I would appreciate if another forum member would check my transcription and especially figure out the words in the entry that look fuzzy.

Question: I found the death records for the mother and her baby and will post them later. If I read the entry correctly for Elisabeth, she died on 5 Dec. 1816 (a week after giving birth and Jakob her husband was a widower again) and Maria Theresia died on 1 Jan 1817 (at five weeks old). The part of the baptism entry that I need translated is the meaning of the comment below the mother's name? Also, in the last column (Heimath) - was Meisterschwanden the home town of the father Jakob?

I want to mention that if Johann Jakob Siegrist and Elisabeth Hermann are the parents of: the still born baby born 17 Feb 1813, Maria Elisabeth born 19 April 1814, Johann Jakob born 30 Sept 1815 and Maria Theresia born 28 Nov 1816 (all born in Brugg), the ages of these siblings are one year (plus a few months) apart, which is close together - it just seems that this happens less often.

Thank you!

[entry] 21.
Nov: 28 - Dec: 13 [1816]
[Name of child] Maria Theresia obiit. [she died]
[Name of parents] Mstr. J[ohann] J[akob] Siegrist, v. Meisterschwanden, hiesiger Spengler.
Fr Elisabeth Herrmann, (? des Geburt gestorben)
[Names of witnesses] Elts?us Christina Siegrist, v. Meisterschwand[en]
Theresia Seigrist, v. ?
[Column heading] Heimath Meisterschwand[en], Kgem. [Kirchgemeide] Seengen

[Wolf]

[entry] 21.
Nov: 28 - Dec: 13 [1816]
[Name of child] Maria Theresia obiit. [she died]
[Name of parents] Mstr. J[ohann] J[akob] Siegrist, v. Meisterschwanden, hiesiger Spengler.
Fr Elisabeth Herrmann, (bald nach der Geburt gestorben)
[Names of witnesses] Eltseus Christian Siegrist, v. Meisterschwand[en]
Theresia Seigrist, v. ebenda
[Column heading] Heimath Meisterschwand[en], Kgem. [Kirchgemeide] Seengen

"bald nach der Geburt gestorben" = died shortly after giving birth.
Eltseus: I have to admit I have never heard this name before.
"von ebenda" = from the same place.

[Debra Palmer]

"bald nach der Geburt gestorben" = died shortly after giving birth.
Eltseus: I have to admit I have never heard this name before.
"von ebenda" = from the same place.

The translation of the priest's note for Elisabeth helps to confirm that the death record with a date of 5 Dec 1816 is for her.

The example (from the link) of the witness's name "Eltseus" from what looks like an obscure book was surprising, and this unusual name and other information for the witnesses are very helpful, because both of them have the same surname and place of citizenship as the father Jakob and they could be related to him e.g. siblings.

Thank you, Wolf for your help.

Debra

[Peter.D]

Der Pfarrer hat wohl den i-Punkt zu lange geschrieben: es muss wohl Elisäus heissen, nach dem biblischen Propheten (Eliseus, Elisha etc.).
Im Alltag hat er wohl nur den zweiten Vornamen Christian verwendet ... bei dem der i-Punkt auch missraten ist!

Peter

[Wolf]

... from what looks like an obscure book ...

Here's some info on the author.

[Debra Palmer]

Der Pfarrer hat wohl den i-Punkt zu lange geschrieben: es muss wohl Elisäus heissen, nach dem biblischen Propheten (Eliseus, Elisha etc.).
Im Alltag hat er wohl nur den zweiten Vornamen Christian verwendet ... bei dem der i-Punkt auch missraten ist!

... from what looks like an obscure book ...

Here's some info on the author.

According to the Wikipedia article for Jeremias Drexal: "...During this period he accompanied Maximilian on his Bohemian campaign. He died in Munich. ... Jeremias is the author of some 20 works that were widely read and translated. His writings on the eternal truth, the virtues and the Christian exemplar were popular; hundreds of thousands of copies of his works were printed. By 1642 in Munich alone, 170,700 copies of his works had appeared. ..."

I was pleasantly surprised to read that he was not "obscure", but instead well known for his writings. I've learned a bit of interesting information about him.

Debra

[Debra Palmer]

Der Pfarrer hat wohl den i-Punkt zu lange geschrieben: es muss wohl Elisäus heissen, nach dem biblischen Propheten (Eliseus, Elisha etc.).
Im Alltag hat er wohl nur den zweiten Vornamen Christian verwendet ... bei dem der i-Punkt auch missraten ist!

Hello Peter,

Correct me if I am misunderstanding your comment (the online translator that I used could be "off" or the translation is just difficult for me to understand), I think you are saying that the priest formed the 3rd letter in Eltseus (inadvertently) too long and so it looks like a "t" but he really meant that it is "i" therefore "Eliseus". When I read the name "Eltseus" (from the book by Jeremias Drexal), the 3rd letter looks like a "t".

The same applies to the middle name Christian because the 4th letter looks similar to the "t' in Eltseus, but the 7th letter in Christian looks like a dotted "i".

[Peter.D]

Hi Debra, yes absolutely correct: the name is Elisäus, thus Eliseus or Elisha, and not Eltsäus.

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

... yes absolutely correct: the name is Elisäus, thus Eliseus or Elisha, and not Eltsäus.

Edit: I deleted my question in this post because I read some additional information and figured it out.

Thank you, Peter for your explanation of the witness's name "Eliseus", which is very helpful. That he was probably called Christian, is also helpful because if one searches the records for him (since it's possible that he was a relative of Jakob Siegrist), I think some of the records may not mention the name Eliseus but only Christian.

Debra

[Peter.D]

That's right, Debra. Eliseus was a prophet in the Old Testament. Maybe the reverend was reading from the Old Testament on the day of the baptism and recommended this name to the parents. Or they called him Eli later on. In any case, this unusual name was a pleasant contrast to the ever same, few first names of that time!

By the way, the town of Brugg has the nickname Propheten-Städtchen (Little Prophet Town) because it had a Latin school early on.

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

That's right, Debra. Eliseus was a prophet in the Old Testament. Maybe the reverend was reading from the Old Testament on the day of the baptism and recommended this name to the parents. Or they called him Eli later on. In any case, this unusual name was a pleasant contrast to the ever same, few first names of that time!

By the way, the town of Brugg has the nickname Propheten-Städtchen (Little Prophet Town) because it had a Latin school early on.

Peter,

I appreciate the link to the article (about the prophet Eliseus / Elisha) and I read some interesting information about how through archaeological discovery an artifact was found that "quite possibly bears his name". Also, a fact is mentioned that, "the name Elisha was quite rare in ancient Israel". This same name was (as you mentioned) also unusual in Brugg!

Your comments that he could have been called Christian or Eli are helpful when searching for records.

Thank you much.
Debra

[Debra Palmer]

The death record is for Elisabeth Hermann and her death date of 5 Dec 1816 makes sense when reading the priest's note, "bald nach der Geburt gestorben" (which refers to the mother) in Maria Theresia Siegrist's baptismal record (previously posted) that lists the child's birth as 28 Nov 1816 and baptism as 13 Dec 1816.

I would appreciate the help if another forum member would correct my transcription and finish the missing words. Some of entries in the full page (attached) are removed but the column headings are available.

Question: in the second to the last column (heading B?), who could the place Meisterschwanden refer to?

Thank you!

[year] 1816
[entry] 13.
[date of death] December 5
[time of death] [column heading] Stunde ? ? 8. [am]
[date of burial] December 8.
[name of deceased] Fr Elisabeth Siegrist nee Hermann
[column heading] H? Stand. = des Spenglers frau
[column heading] Alter Jahr 32. [blank] [blank]
[column heading] B? Meisterschwanden
[column heading] Krankheit Mutter ?

[Peter.D]

Hello Debra

Did you notice all the i's that look like t's again? This was obviously a particular characteristic of this pastor.

Again in this register, we find some old expressions no longer in use.

The hour of death is divided into two sub-columns: Vorm(ittag) and Nachm(ittag), i.e. am and pm, as you assumed.

The column on the right is titled häuslicher Stand, an outdated expression for profession, occupation or role.

Gemeinde here means Heimatgemeinde, that is, the municipality that had to step in, for example, in case of poverty or tutelage. Through marriage, Elisabeth had acquired the Heimatrecht of her husband, i.e. Meisterschwanden - and lost her original Heimatrecht in Schinznach. Which, by the way, only changed in the late 20th century - and today has only a subordinate legal relevance.

Elisabeth, possibly called Bethli or Elsi etc., died of Mutterbrand, i.e. uterine inflammation or necrosis. Of course, medical diagnoses were not very accurate and standardized at that time.

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

Hello Peter,

I did notice the i's that look like t's in her first name and the name of the place!

Your transcription and explanations of the column headings are all helpful, including Gemeinde and the meaning of Heimatgemeinde. I had assumed that the place Meisterschwanden was probably referring to Elisabeth's husband the Spengler (since her place of citizenship was Schinznach), but your explanation that it's actually referring to her Heimatrecht through marriage, is helpful.

Also, Elisabeth's cause of death Mutterbrand, makes a lot of sense when reading the pastor's note about the mother's death in Maria Theresia Siegrist's baptismal record (posted previously).

Thank you very much for your answers and the information - it's appreciated.

Debra

[Säntis]

Grüezi Lesende,

Hs. Siegrist-Wilhelm, Zur Erforschung der noch heute lebenden ältesten Bürgergeschlechter von Meisterschwanden, in Der Schweizer Familienforscher = Le généalogiste suisse, Band 7, 1940, Heft 7-10.
[Betrifft die Siegrist von Meisterschwanden]

Digitalisat auf einer Webseite von E-Periodica, einer Plattform der ETH-Bibliothek Zürich.

Bochtella