Baumgartner von Bremgarten BE

[Debra Palmer]

I think this is the right place to request a translation. The baptism record (year 1841 in Wichtrach BE) is for Christian Baumgartner son of Christian Baumgartner and Susanna Haari. My transcription is complete and I just need it checked for needed corrections. I would appreciate help to finish one part of my translation that has a ? mark and any corrections.
Thank you!
Source: Evangelisch-Reformierte Kirche Bremgarten (Bern)

13 Jul. 1 Aug. 1841. zu Wichtrach [BE] get[auft] ein ehelicher Christian
P[arentes] Christian Baumgartner, Hansen, v[on] Herrenschwanden, zu Kiesen.
Susanna Haari, Peters v[on] Frutigen. Copul[ation] Kirchdorf 23 Jul. 1841
T[estes] Joh[ann] Trachsel v[on] Jaberg - Christian Haari, der Mutter Bruder - Barb[ara] Baumgartner, der Vater Schwester -
Attest Wichtrach den 1 Aug. 1841 G. Neusand, Pfe.
margin note: Baumgartner, burgerrodel p. 5 unten

Name of child: Christian
Birth date: July 13,1841
Baptism date and place: August 1, 1841 in Wichtrach (BE) ?
Parents: Christian Baumgartner, son of Hans of Herrenschwanden, residing in Kiesen.
Susanna Haari, daughter of Peter of Frutigen. The couple were married in Kirchdorf on July 23, 1841.
Witnesses:
Johann Trachsel of Jaberg
Christian Haari, the mother's brother
Barbara Baumgartner, the father's sister

Attest Wichtrach August 1, 1841 G. Neusand, Pfe

Christian Baumgartner baptism 1841 Wichtrach BE (column headings).jpg

Christian Baumgartner baptism 1841 Wichtrach BE .jpg

==================
urspr. Titel: Baumgartner von Herrenschwanden BE translation

[hhg]

your transcript and translation seems perfect to me, only one minor item to think over:
Priest's name might be Neuhand, and though the last letter for his title looks like "e", Pfr. (abbreviation for Pfarrer) might make more sense

[Wolf]

Agreed - very good transcription. My comments:
... des Vaters Schwester (no influence on translation)
G. Neuhaus, Pfr

BTW - Herrenschwanden is (was) not an independent place of citizenship - this Baumgartner line will most likely have been citizens of Kirchlindach.

[Debra Palmer]

Thanks, hhg and Wolf, for your help.
I also appreciate the comment about: this Baumgartner line will most likely have been citizens of Kirchlindach. I looked at some records for other Baumgartner family members (such as Christian's father, grandfather and great-grandfather), and they were of Bremgarten rather than Herrenschwanden. I assume that Bremgarten is the name of the parish.

[Wolf]

Dear Debra,
there are two Bremgarten - the larger one in canton Aargau, but also Bremgarten bei Bern. Herrenschwanden belonged to the parish of Kirchlindach (which is why I assume Kirchlindach to be the Baumgartners' place of citizenship) - but the parish of Bremgarten bei Bern was nearer: could well be that people from Herrenschwanden therefore attended church in Bremgarten.

Herrenschwanden-Kirchlindac-Bremgarten-b-Bern.jpg

This sub-forum was the correct place for your request - but now (I hope with the question answered) I will re-name the topic and shift it to Bern.
Best regards - Wolf

[Debra Palmer]

Thanks, Wolf, for your explanation about the place of citizenship and for the map.

After viewing the map, I also think it is likely that a family living in Herrenschwanden would have attended church in the parish of Bremgarten bei Bern rather than in the parish of Kirchlindach.

I attached some records showing the parish of Bremgarten as the place of citizenship for Christian's father Christian Baumgartner, grandfather Johannes Baumgartner, and great-grandfather Hans Baumgartner. Any thoughts?

1st image: marriage record for Christian's parents year 1841 (Bremgarten bei Bern)

Christian Baumgartner & Susanna Haari marriage 1841 Bremgarten .jpg

2nd image: marriage record for Christian's grandparents year 1808 (Bremgarten bei Bern)

Hanns Baumgartner and Christina Küenzi marriage 1808 Bremgarten.jpg

3rd image: baptism record for Christian's grandfather year 1785 - the place of citizenship is difficult to read but I think it is Bremgarten? (Niederwichtrach)

Johannes Baumgartner baptism 1785 Niederwichtrach.jpg

4th image: marriage record for Christian's great-grandparents year 1777 (Niederwichtrach)

Hans Baumgartner & Anna Mosimann marriage 1777 Niederwichtrach.jpg

[Walter]

Diese Ehe wurde in Bremgarten (Bern) verkündet, es scheint damals ein entsprechendes Bürgergeschlecht in Bremgarten BE gegeben zu haben.
In Kirchlindach habe ich diese Verkündung nicht gefunden.
Heute gibt es aber offenbar keine Altbürger von Bremgarten BE mehr (vor 1800)

[Wolf]

Two comments:

1) Technical: there is the possibility to display images within the text - see viewtopic.php?t=32594. I have done that now.

2) Place of citizenship: the "von" indicating the place of citizenship today was not seen that strictly in earlier times. I have seen quite a few church records where the "von" just indicated the place of residence. This does not exclude, however, what Walter mentioned: there could well have been a now extinct line Baumgartner of Bremgarten bei Bern.

Question: how should this line be labeled (if not von Kichlindach)? ... in Bremgarten bei Bern - or - in Herrenschwanden?

[Walter]

Question: how should this line be labeled (if not von Kichlindach)? ... in Bremgarten bei Bern - or - in Herrenschwanden?

Diese Verheiratung wurde auch in Frutigen eingetragen, dem Heimatort der Susanna Hari (Frutigen, Rodel 21, Seite 60).
Auch hier wird der Christian Baumgartner als "v(on) Bremgart(en)" notiert.
Sein Heimatort war also Bremgarten BE (meine ich).

Frutigen_21-60_1841.jpg

[Wolf]

OK - has been re-named - Wolf

[Debra Palmer]

I learned some new things about "Heimatort". Thank you both for a credible answer: Bremgarten BE was the Heimatort for Christian Baumgartner.

[Debra Palmer]

I know that Hans Baumgartner and his second wife Anna Mosimann (reference: Wichtrach BE, Eherodel 12, Seite 100 - see the attached record related to their marriage download/file.php?id=27780&mode=view) had two sons, and both of them were named Johannes. They were born in 1783 and 1785. The first Johannes must have died young, and I found a possible death record for him in 1783. There is a possible death record in 1849 for the other Johannes born in 1785.

Here are my transcriptions of the baptismal records for Johannes born in 1785. I would appreciate help with filling in the missing letters/words and any corrections to my transcriptions.

Thank you!

[Wichtrach BE]
[Reference: Wichtrach BE, Taufrodel 5, Seite 220 - see download/file.php?id=27776&mode=view]
Eodem noch [den 8 ten dito=Julÿ] [1785]
Inf[ans] Johannes
P[arentes] Hans Baumgartner v[on] Bremgart[en] in der Kleinen Au [I couldn't find this place on a map? The same place is mentioned in the record related to the parents' marriage in 1777]
Anna Mosiman
T[estes] obiger deß Kinds Vatter, [Was the father Hans a witnesses for his own son?] Hans Mosiman v[on] Haütligen?, Cattrÿ sein Eheweib [Is Cattrÿ the wife of the wittness Hans Mosiman?]

[Bremgarten bei Bern]

Johannes Baumgartner baptism 1785 Bremgarten.jpg

1785 Jul 8 ist zu Wicht[r]ach getauft worden ? Johannes Baumgartner
Par[entes] Hans Baumgartner v[on] Bremgarten in der Kleinen Au
Anna Mosiman
Test[es] Obiger des Kindes Vater -- Hans Mosimann, v[on] Häutligen, Cuttrÿ sein Ehew[eib]
Extrahir? ? den 20 Nov[ember] 1808 [Hans Baumgartner born in 1785 and his wife Christina Künzi were married on 09.12.1808, so I think this date could be related to their "Proclamation" record - Reference: Wichtrach BE, Eherodel 13, Seite 5] Joh. ?

[Debra Palmer]

Here are my transcriptions of the possible death records in 1849 for Johannes born in 1785. I would appreciate help with filling in the missing letters/words and any corrections to my transcriptions (see the two attachments below).

Question: I think that the death record in 1849 in Bremgarten bei Bern for the "wittwer" Johannes Künzi, son of Johannes, is possibly the correct one for the Johannes baptized on 08.07.1785. If the death record I found in 1838 for a Christina Baumgartner née Künzi is the correct one for his wife, than it would at least confirm that Hans was a widower when he died. The 1849 death record for Johannes gives the age as "63 Jahr 4 Monat 13 Tag". When I used an online date calculator, I got a birth date of 12.10.1785, which matches the year of Johannes' baptism in 1785, but the calculated birth month of October is three months after the baptism in July. Are there different methods to calculate a birth date that might give a different result?

[Wichtrach BE]

Johannes Baumgartner death 1849 Wichtrach.jpg

Datum des Todes: 25 Febr[uar] [1849]
Datum des Begräbe: 28 Febr[uar]
Geschlechtnamen: Baumgartner
Taufnamen: Johannes
Vater? Ehe: Johannes
Heimath: Bremgarten ?
Wohnort: Kiesen
? Männlich ?: ?
Krankheit: Wassersucht [could this be dropsy?]
Alter: 63 Jahr 4 Monat 13 Tag

[Bremgarten bei Bern]

Johannes Baumgartner death 1849 Bremgarten.jpg

1849
Stadtgericht
[blank]: 25 Febr[uar]
[blank]: 28 Febr[uar]
[blank]: Johannes Baumgartner, Johanns ?, ein Wittwer ? Stadtgericht [What could Stadtgericht be referring to?]
Wohnort: Kiesen
Krankh[ei]t: Wassersucht
Jahr Mo[nat] Tag: 63 4 1?

[Debra Palmer]

Here are my transcriptions of the baptismal record and the possible death record, both in 1783, for the first Johannes. Again, I would appreciate help with filling in the missing letters/words and any corrections to my transcriptions (see the two attachments below).

[Wichtrach BE]

Johannes Baumgartner baptism 1783 Wichtrach.jpg

den 21 ten dito [Februar 1783]
Inf[ans] Johannes
Par[entes] Hans Baumgartner von Bremgart[en] zu Kies[en] [Could the place "Kleinen Au" in the 1785 baptismal record be located by Kiesen?]
Anna Mosiman von Laupersweil
T[estes] Hans Mosiman, Christen Mosiman der obigen Brudern [I assume that these two witnesses are the brothers of the child's mother Anna and the third witness Barbara is the sister of Anna?]
Barbara Müller geb[orene] Mosiman die Schwester zu H?igen Verheÿratet

[Wichtrach BE]

Hans Baumgartner death 1783 Wichtrach .jpg

Hansli Baumgartner, Hanses Knäbl[e]in verstarbe den 27 ten Nov[ember] [1783] im 8 ten Monath seines alt erb, und ?ard den 29 ten darau ? begraben.

Question: Does the phrase "in the 8th month of his age" mean that the child was not yet 8 months old, but was 7 months (plus so many days) old when he died? If the child was born in February before or on the baptismal day of the 21st, then he would have turned 8 months old in October, rather than in November. Any thoughts?

[Walter]

Hansli Baumgartner, Hanses Knäbl[e]in verstarbe den 27 ten Nov[ember] [1783] im 8 ten Monath seines Alters, und ward den 29 ten darauff begraben.

[Walter]

Par[entes] Hans Baumgartner von Bremgart[en] zu Kies[en] [Could the place "Kleinen Au" in the 1785 baptismal record be located by Kiesen?]

Siehe hier (Chlinau = Kleine Au)

[Walter]

download/file.php?id=28270&mode=view
den 21 ten dito [Februar 1783]
Inf[ans] Johannes
Par[entes] Hans Baumgartner von Bremgart[en] zu Kies[en] [Could the place "Kleinen Au" in the 1785 baptismal record be located by Kiesen?]
Richtig, siehe hier
Anna Mosiman von Laupersweil
T[estes] Hans Mosiman, Christen Mosiman der obigen Brüdern [I assume that these two witnesses are the brothers of the child's mother Anna and the third witness Barbara is the sister of Anna?]
Das sehe ich auch so.
Barbara Müller geb[orene] Mosiman die Schwester zu Hünigen Verheÿratet

[Debra Palmer]

den 21 ten dito [Februar 1783] [...]

Thank you, Walter, for your helpful edits to my transcriptions, and for confirming that the three witnesses were Anna's sister and two brothers (the information that Barbara's married name is Müller is new to me). I really appreciate that you solved the question of where the place "Kleine Au" is located. Also, the map showing "Chlinau" is very helpful!

[Walter]

download/file.php?id=27776&mode=view
Eodem noch [den 8 ten dito=Julÿ] [1785]
Inf[ans] Johannes
P[arentes] Hans Baumgartner v[on] Bremgart[en] in der Kleinen Au
Anna Mosiman
T[estes] obiger deß Kinds Vatter, [Was the father Hans a witnesses for his own son?] >yes
Hans Mosiman v[on] Häutligen > siehe hier
Cattrÿ sein Eheweib [Is Cattrÿ the wife of the wittness Hans Mosiman?] >I think so

[Walter]

download/file.php?id=28265&mode=view
1785 Jul 8 ist zu Wicht[r]ach getauft worden ein ehl[icher] Johannes Baumgartner
Par[entes] Hans Baumgartner v[on] Bremgarten in der Kleinen Au
Anna Mosiman
Test[es] Obiger des Kindes Vater -- Hans Mosimann, v[on] Häutligen, Cattrÿ sein Ehew[eib]
Extrahirt ? den 20 Nov[ember] 1808 Joh. Rud. Wyß Pf[arr]er.

[Walter]

download/file.php?id=28268&mode=view
Datum des Todes: 25 Febr[uar] [1849]
Datum des Begräbn[is]: 28 Febr[uar]
Geschlechtnamen: Baumgartner
Taufnamen: Johannes
Vater od[er] Efr [Ehefrau?]: Johannes
Heimath: Bremgarten Stadtgericht
Wohnort: Kiesen
Geschlecht Männlich verheir[atet]
Krankheit: Wassersucht [could this be dropsy?] > yes
Alter: 63 Jahr 4 Monat 13 Tag

[Bremgarten bei Bern]
download/file.php?id=28267&mode=view
1849
Stadtgericht
[blank]: 25 Febr[uar]
[blank]: 28 Febr[uar]
[blank]: Johannes Baumgartner, Johanns sel, ein Wittwer von Stadtgericht [What could Stadtgericht be referring to?] > Bremgarten Stadtgericht war bis 1880 eine eigenständige Gemeinde > siehe hier
Wohnort: Kiesen
Krankh[ei]t: Wassersucht
Jahr Mo[nat] Tag: 63 4 13 > 4 und 13 könnten durchstrichen sein, hat da jemand was gemerkt?

[Debra Palmer]

download/file.php?id=27776&mode=view
Eodem noch [den 8 ten dito=Julÿ] [1785]
Inf[ans] Johannes
P[arentes] Hans Baumgartner v[on] Bremgart[en] in der Kleinen Au
Anna Mosiman
T[estes] obiger deß Kinds Vatter, [Was the father Hans a witnesses for his own son?] >yes
Hans Mosiman v[on] Häutligen > siehe hier
Cattrÿ sein Eheweib [Is Cattrÿ the wife of the wittness Hans Mosiman?] >I think so

Thank you, Walter, for confirming that the father of the child was indeed a witness, for the helpful map of Häutligen, and for your opinion that the witness Cattrÿ is probably the wife of the other witness Hans Mosiman (I think this Hans might be the brother of Anna Mosiman). A marriage record for Hans Mosiman and Cattrÿ in 1785 or earlier, would confirm if they were married. I'll add this to my research list.

[Debra Palmer]

[Bremgarten bei Bern]
download/file.php?id=28267&mode=view
1849
Stadtgericht
[blank]: 25 Febr[uar]
[blank]: 28 Febr[uar]
[blank]: Johannes Baumgartner, Johanns sel, ein Wittwer von Stadtgericht [What could Stadtgericht be referring to?] > Bremgarten Stadtgericht war bis 1880 eine eigenständige Gemeinde > siehe hier
Wohnort: Kiesen
Krankh[ei]t: Wassersucht
Jahr Mo[nat] Tag: 63 4 13 > 4 und 13 könnten durchstrichen sein, hat da jemand was gemerkt?

Jahr Mo[nat] Tag: 63 4 13 > 4 und 13 könnten durchstrichen sein, hat da jemand was gemerkt?

Uh huh, thank you Walter, for pointing out that the numbers for the Monat and the Tag could be crossed out! If that's the case, I wonder what the reason could be? I had originally thought that perhaps the scribe was a little careless when he wrote those numbers. I looked at other entries on the page and saw an example where the scribe made a mistake and seems to have written over the number for the Jahr. There is another example on the previous page where the scribe did cross out the number for the Jahr - see the two attachments below.

Thank you again, for your edits to my transcriptions, and I appreciate the Wiki page about "Bremgarten Stadtgericht"!

[Debra Palmer]

Thanks, Wolf, for the links you added to the original images, which makes it easier to follow.